I had an old post from my long-ago Marvel blog of the late 00s come up on my timeline the other day, and it reminded me of a thing that I did there that I think it might be fun to replicate here.
they’re treating it as a joke because the fans are treating it as if a real person they know was shot in the street and not as if spider-man’s going through some bad stories, which happens to every character. I also think OMD and the MJ/Paul relationship were bad ideas but I’m honestly really weirded out by some fan reactions to this. It’s revealed this weird undercurrent of misogyny, like “how dare Mary Jane be a hero of her own or have her own story, her entire role is Peter’s Love Interest and nothing else!”
I'd say the actual misogyny is taking an independent woman against her will and trapping her in another world with another man, while forcing a family on her she did not ask for, purely to make another male character single again. Not only that, they took MJ's greatest fear growing up, which was finding herself trapped in a family life due to unforeseen circumstances, and tried to romanticize it as some sort of "happy ending" that was "taken" from her.
Given the way Marvel chose to kick her out of Peter's life, it seems quite ironic to try to turn it into "misogynistic fans just want her to be a love interest". MJ always had her own goals and dreams, she simply also happened to be in love with Peter Parker and provide some valuable grounding to the story. If you truly think she needed superpowers(which I'm not opposed to if it had been done in a better way) to be her own person with her own story, you haven't been paying attention to her character and history.
To be super clear, I’m not a supporter of her relationship with Paul. It’s entirely possible that you as an individual might feel that MJ specifically was done wrong. I responded like I did because the main sentiment I’ve been seeing online is a bunch of people mad that Peter was “cucked” and that MJ is a hero on her own now rather than Peter’s love interest. If that’s not you, I apologize for implying it was.
All good. I just think Marvel should be held accountable for what they did to MJ's character, instead of mocking the readers with Paul jokes or telling them they mischaracterize the events of the book with no further elaboration. Basically imagine if say, after Avengers #200, Marvel not only did nothing to fix it, but Jim Shooter and co. mocked fans for what was done to Carol Danvers in that story, or kept making "Marcus and Carol" jokes, like they have been doing with Paul and MJ. Goes without saying there are fans who take it too far, but I think Marvel's approach leaves a lot to be desired as well.
Why can’t heroes find new love interests? Let Peter date and have fun, create new interesting characters, you never know who could become a favorite. Personally, I don’t care if Peter is with MJ
Again the problem isn't that they're not together, it's with how they were split up. Nobody cares that MJ has a new boyfriend, she's dated other guys before, the problem is that she left Peter for this guy. It's that her first post-OMD experience with a spouse and kids is not with Peter Parker, but with some forced unwanted original character that she left Peter for. A status quo that editorial not only seemingly has no interest in fixing, but keeps mocking readers for. How are fans supposed to react to that?
I don't mind when that happens (and I'm not nearly as upset with others and frankly at this point I find Paul hilarious) but I think it's become clear that readers won't accept anyone but MJ and ultimately, any new love interest is only temporary. Still not a huge deal either though!
Isn't it exactly the same feeling Chris Claremont has for Cyclops because of an editorial decision and because of his own choices as a writer? Isn't it exactly because of this feeling towards a fictional character that made him create a stupid love triangle that makes Jean and Scott look terrible, while making Logan a typical alpha male? Isn't it exactly because of this spiteful feeling towards a fictional character that he remains so bitter towards that same character to this day? So it's okay when it's a writer doing it, but not the fans?
Yes, you're talking about treating characters as if they were real people, and getting mad at a fictional character because of fictional things the writer himself chose to put in the books. You know, like a famous writer has been doing since the 1980s. So the question remains, if it's the writer it's okay, but if it's fans, are they weird, and wrong, or something?
Chris Claremont's anger about it isn't a good thing, but that's not pertinent to the conversation. What is pertinent is the status of Peter Parker, and I don't think it is personal, if that's what you're getting at. It seems like it's business.
Is there any way Marvel Max and Red Band titles can be made available on Marvel Unlimited? I’ve been trying to read the most recent Blade and Werewolf by Night books but I can’t buy them anywhere digitally and my LCS doesn’t have them.
I'd have to suggest Dark Phoenix Saga, of course. Arguably Chris Claremont's greatest work. I'd include the full story, from Uncanny X-Men #108 - #138, which I realize might be cheating but I do firmly believe it's one cohesive story. You have Cockrum and Byrne doing some truly incredible work, you have beautiful, classic issues like Uncanny X-Men #128 and #132, and it has a tragic, moving finale.
God Loves, Man Kills fits as well, and I don't think there's ever been anything in X-Men that summarizes what X-Men is all about than that one.
I would also suggest Jonathan Hickman's Solve Everything arc. Fantastic Four #570 - #572. Three issues, and in three issues a defining Reed Richards story is told. To me, it's THE Reed Richards story. I still get a little emotional at that final page, when the door opens.
This is a great one, and 230 has one of the most creative ways Spidey has ever ended a fight. It's always great to see Peter Parker think his way out, rather than just punching.
Spawn Blood Feud was a terrible read and that’s down to Alan. Spawn/Wildcats wasn’t much better. Badrock Vs Violator was the worst. But the first, Violator, with Bart Sears was actually and intentionally hilarious in a Tarantino, Meet The Feebles kind of way.
Captain America and Batroc #1, by Kieron Gillen and Renato Arlem. A small but absolutely perfect done-in-one.
The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (vol. 2) #8-10, by Ryan North and Erica Henderson. The romance/Mole Man story, a brilliant (and hilarious) example of taking a theme and running with it.
I'm a pretty big fan of the Dark Angel Saga by Rick Remender and was disappointed when a lot of Apocalypse lore it introduced was sidelined in Krakoa.
Will the upcoming Revelation and/or AoA stuff bring any of that back? I.e. the Death Seed, the Apocalypse Succession, the Celestials' evolutionary caretaker role, etc.?
Joe Wade did indeed never turn up again after the Nightmare in Scarlet crossover, although there’s a reference to a fugitive Scarlet Spider during the Ellis/Deodato Thunderbolts run that may have been him. Kinda surprised he hasn’t turned up in one of the Spider-Verse events yet…
GiJoe: 60-66: Larry Hama and Ron Wagner: an emotional action packed story of prisoners of war that stays with me to this day
X-Men God Loves Man Kills OGN by Claremont and Brent Anderson
Captain America the Winter Solider 1-14: Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting (and a few others)
Punisher Max 1-6: In the beginning by Garth Ennis and Lewis Larosa (the best action/crime movie on paper I have seen)
X-Men Longshot: Annual 10/New Mutants Special 2: Claremont and Art Adams and Alan Davis - just amazing pure comic book insanity
Avengers 256/257: Roger Stern and John Buscema: The Savage Land destroyed by Terminus - just pure Avengers action with great stakes and a cool twist ending
Daredevil 208-209: Harlan Ellison and David Mazucelli: the most dangerous night of DD's life
X-Men 256-268: Claremont and Jim Lee: Acts of Vengeance with the new Psylocke
X-men 205: Wounded Wolf: Claremont and BWS: one of the best Wolverine one shot stories out there
Some honorable mentions are the Magneto back up stories by Claremont and Bolton in classic Xmen, the Hama/Silvetsri early stories in Wolverine (31-33 especially); the original West Coast Avengers mini series by Stern and Hall; Kravens Last hunt, ...with all my choices I tried to pick self contained tales that I think could be enjoyed by anyone/fans of the films/non comic readers/etc.
Totally fair! I'm not nominating because it's my favorite, but I do think it's a classic one at this point and it affected a lot of stories going forward. So it's an important one.
Though maybe I should have nominated House of M. Except I haaated House of M, so I get where you're coming from.
Now that we've had a stripped down version of your unified theory of Scott and Jean, can you PLEASE share with us the longer version? At least a little bit?
I like how it helps explain why Scott left Maddie in X-Factor - the 'soul connection' made him act irrationally (in a subtle way). Very clever and based on a classic Xmen moment.
they’re treating it as a joke because the fans are treating it as if a real person they know was shot in the street and not as if spider-man’s going through some bad stories, which happens to every character. I also think OMD and the MJ/Paul relationship were bad ideas but I’m honestly really weirded out by some fan reactions to this. It’s revealed this weird undercurrent of misogyny, like “how dare Mary Jane be a hero of her own or have her own story, her entire role is Peter’s Love Interest and nothing else!”
I'd say the actual misogyny is taking an independent woman against her will and trapping her in another world with another man, while forcing a family on her she did not ask for, purely to make another male character single again. Not only that, they took MJ's greatest fear growing up, which was finding herself trapped in a family life due to unforeseen circumstances, and tried to romanticize it as some sort of "happy ending" that was "taken" from her.
Given the way Marvel chose to kick her out of Peter's life, it seems quite ironic to try to turn it into "misogynistic fans just want her to be a love interest". MJ always had her own goals and dreams, she simply also happened to be in love with Peter Parker and provide some valuable grounding to the story. If you truly think she needed superpowers(which I'm not opposed to if it had been done in a better way) to be her own person with her own story, you haven't been paying attention to her character and history.
To be super clear, I’m not a supporter of her relationship with Paul. It’s entirely possible that you as an individual might feel that MJ specifically was done wrong. I responded like I did because the main sentiment I’ve been seeing online is a bunch of people mad that Peter was “cucked” and that MJ is a hero on her own now rather than Peter’s love interest. If that’s not you, I apologize for implying it was.
All good. I just think Marvel should be held accountable for what they did to MJ's character, instead of mocking the readers with Paul jokes or telling them they mischaracterize the events of the book with no further elaboration. Basically imagine if say, after Avengers #200, Marvel not only did nothing to fix it, but Jim Shooter and co. mocked fans for what was done to Carol Danvers in that story, or kept making "Marcus and Carol" jokes, like they have been doing with Paul and MJ. Goes without saying there are fans who take it too far, but I think Marvel's approach leaves a lot to be desired as well.
Why can’t heroes find new love interests? Let Peter date and have fun, create new interesting characters, you never know who could become a favorite. Personally, I don’t care if Peter is with MJ
Again the problem isn't that they're not together, it's with how they were split up. Nobody cares that MJ has a new boyfriend, she's dated other guys before, the problem is that she left Peter for this guy. It's that her first post-OMD experience with a spouse and kids is not with Peter Parker, but with some forced unwanted original character that she left Peter for. A status quo that editorial not only seemingly has no interest in fixing, but keeps mocking readers for. How are fans supposed to react to that?
I don't mind when that happens (and I'm not nearly as upset with others and frankly at this point I find Paul hilarious) but I think it's become clear that readers won't accept anyone but MJ and ultimately, any new love interest is only temporary. Still not a huge deal either though!
I don’t think it matters how they split up. It could easily be argued divorce is worse.
I'm not talking about the marriage, I'm talking about the current situation where MJ left Peter because she got trapped with another guy.
Isn't it exactly the same feeling Chris Claremont has for Cyclops because of an editorial decision and because of his own choices as a writer? Isn't it exactly because of this feeling towards a fictional character that made him create a stupid love triangle that makes Jean and Scott look terrible, while making Logan a typical alpha male? Isn't it exactly because of this spiteful feeling towards a fictional character that he remains so bitter towards that same character to this day? So it's okay when it's a writer doing it, but not the fans?
nobody was talking about Cyclops, Joel.
It has been ZERO days since the comments section descended into weirdness about X-Men characters
Yes, you're talking about treating characters as if they were real people, and getting mad at a fictional character because of fictional things the writer himself chose to put in the books. You know, like a famous writer has been doing since the 1980s. So the question remains, if it's the writer it's okay, but if it's fans, are they weird, and wrong, or something?
Please look up “parasocial relationship”, Joel.
Oh, I see, double standards.
Chris Claremont's anger about it isn't a good thing, but that's not pertinent to the conversation. What is pertinent is the status of Peter Parker, and I don't think it is personal, if that's what you're getting at. It seems like it's business.
Is there any way Marvel Max and Red Band titles can be made available on Marvel Unlimited? I’ve been trying to read the most recent Blade and Werewolf by Night books but I can’t buy them anywhere digitally and my LCS doesn’t have them.
1 vote for House of x / Powers of x 👍🏻
Some thoughts on 10 classic Marvel stories to start the debating
Daredevil: Born Again by Miller and Mazzuchelli
Fantastic Four: Galactus Trilog by Lee and Kirby
X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga by Claremont and Byrne
Marvels by Busiek and Ross
Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt by DeMatties and Zeck
X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills by Claremont and Anderson
Hawkeye: My Life as a Weapon by Fraction and Aja
Spider-Man: If This Be My Destiny by Lee and Ditko
Secret Invasion by Bendis and Yu
X-Men: HoX/Pox by Hickman, Larraz, and Silva
I agree with Dark Phoenix and HoX/PoX. I veto Marvels.
I'm killing Secret Invasion dead with my Veto gun.
I'd have to suggest Dark Phoenix Saga, of course. Arguably Chris Claremont's greatest work. I'd include the full story, from Uncanny X-Men #108 - #138, which I realize might be cheating but I do firmly believe it's one cohesive story. You have Cockrum and Byrne doing some truly incredible work, you have beautiful, classic issues like Uncanny X-Men #128 and #132, and it has a tragic, moving finale.
God Loves, Man Kills fits as well, and I don't think there's ever been anything in X-Men that summarizes what X-Men is all about than that one.
I would also suggest Jonathan Hickman's Solve Everything arc. Fantastic Four #570 - #572. Three issues, and in three issues a defining Reed Richards story is told. To me, it's THE Reed Richards story. I still get a little emotional at that final page, when the door opens.
Amazing Spider-Man 229-230- Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut. 229 is still my favorite single issue comic book ever of all-time.
+1 for this one.
This is a great one, and 230 has one of the most creative ways Spidey has ever ended a fight. It's always great to see Peter Parker think his way out, rather than just punching.
Spawn Blood Feud was a terrible read and that’s down to Alan. Spawn/Wildcats wasn’t much better. Badrock Vs Violator was the worst. But the first, Violator, with Bart Sears was actually and intentionally hilarious in a Tarantino, Meet The Feebles kind of way.
I'll nominate a couple of dark-horse candidates:
Captain America and Batroc #1, by Kieron Gillen and Renato Arlem. A small but absolutely perfect done-in-one.
The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl (vol. 2) #8-10, by Ryan North and Erica Henderson. The romance/Mole Man story, a brilliant (and hilarious) example of taking a theme and running with it.
That Captain America/Batroc is a genuine lost classic. I stand with you, friend.
Same. It’s a great example of finding an angle on a character that completely reinvents them.
I'm a pretty big fan of the Dark Angel Saga by Rick Remender and was disappointed when a lot of Apocalypse lore it introduced was sidelined in Krakoa.
Will the upcoming Revelation and/or AoA stuff bring any of that back? I.e. the Death Seed, the Apocalypse Succession, the Celestials' evolutionary caretaker role, etc.?
Joe Wade did indeed never turn up again after the Nightmare in Scarlet crossover, although there’s a reference to a fugitive Scarlet Spider during the Ellis/Deodato Thunderbolts run that may have been him. Kinda surprised he hasn’t turned up in one of the Spider-Verse events yet…
I would like to nominate The Night Gwen Stacy Died (Amazing Spider-Man #121-122) and "Within This Troubled Land" from Fantastic Four #84-87.
My top ten
DD Born Again by Miller/Mazzucelli
GiJoe: 60-66: Larry Hama and Ron Wagner: an emotional action packed story of prisoners of war that stays with me to this day
X-Men God Loves Man Kills OGN by Claremont and Brent Anderson
Captain America the Winter Solider 1-14: Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting (and a few others)
Punisher Max 1-6: In the beginning by Garth Ennis and Lewis Larosa (the best action/crime movie on paper I have seen)
X-Men Longshot: Annual 10/New Mutants Special 2: Claremont and Art Adams and Alan Davis - just amazing pure comic book insanity
Avengers 256/257: Roger Stern and John Buscema: The Savage Land destroyed by Terminus - just pure Avengers action with great stakes and a cool twist ending
Daredevil 208-209: Harlan Ellison and David Mazucelli: the most dangerous night of DD's life
X-Men 256-268: Claremont and Jim Lee: Acts of Vengeance with the new Psylocke
X-men 205: Wounded Wolf: Claremont and BWS: one of the best Wolverine one shot stories out there
Some honorable mentions are the Magneto back up stories by Claremont and Bolton in classic Xmen, the Hama/Silvetsri early stories in Wolverine (31-33 especially); the original West Coast Avengers mini series by Stern and Hall; Kravens Last hunt, ...with all my choices I tried to pick self contained tales that I think could be enjoyed by anyone/fans of the films/non comic readers/etc.
I upvote (is that how this game works?) Winter Soldier. Absolutely epic run that is now solidified as a classic.
I veto GI Joe.
Ten Marvel Masterworks, trying not to duplicate anyone else's picks:
1. Wolverine: Weapon X (BWS)
2. Punisher: Born
3. Fantastic Four: 1 2 3 4
4. Elektra: Assassin
5. Doctor Strange/Doctor Doom: Triumph and Torment
6. Silver Surfer: Black
7. Planet Hulk
8. Squadron Supreme
9. Fantastic Four: Unstable Molecules
10. The Vision
the characterization in 1234 is too off
Good call on Triumph and Torment - a true classic.
This was a fun thought exercise (top ten marvel stories) Tom - do you have a top ten DC stories you would like to share?
Already thinking of mine (Batman year one, Man who has everything, JLA 195-197, Crisis on Earth Prime, etc)
A few nominations:
X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga
X-Men: Inferno
X-Men: House of X
Avengers: Disassembled
Spider-Man: The Night Gwen Stacy Died
All-New X-Men: Yesterday's X-Men
Captain America: Winter Soldier
I'm going to be "that guy" and veto Avengers: Disassembled, which I thought was terrible. Sorry.
Totally fair! I'm not nominating because it's my favorite, but I do think it's a classic one at this point and it affected a lot of stories going forward. So it's an important one.
Though maybe I should have nominated House of M. Except I haaated House of M, so I get where you're coming from.
And a question:
Now that we've had a stripped down version of your unified theory of Scott and Jean, can you PLEASE share with us the longer version? At least a little bit?
I like how it helps explain why Scott left Maddie in X-Factor - the 'soul connection' made him act irrationally (in a subtle way). Very clever and based on a classic Xmen moment.