Hey Tom. Gotta admit you pulled the rug out from under me a bit when you clarified that things that don't sell well in singles also don't sell well in trade. That was usually my defense to the bigots who say that books that introduce more diversity and the singles don't sell well (based on the old Diamond/Comicron numbers) - that while the singles might not sell, they pay the bills and then the trade makes the money. So when that happened/happens and a series doesn't sell well, is this truly an attempt by the publisher to keep more diversity there for non-capitalistic reasons?
The pros I've talked to have explained it thusly; trade paperback collections can, under the right circumstances, surpass single issue sales. The audience for single issues is almost entirely male hardcore comic book fans over the age of 40. Mortality being a fact of life, the existing pool of over 40 year olds shrinks every day, and due to a combination of an overreliance on specialty shops and for 30 years making almost all of their comics aimed at people who regularly visit those specialty shops (ie; male hardcore comic book fans over the age of 40), Marvel and DC have not added new readers at nearly the rate that the old ones are dying off.
Consequently, although many young people are aware of Marvel and DC characters through movies, animation, and videogames, they are no longer aware of actual comic books. And on the off chance that they do come across a comic book, they tend to find they're aimed at old people. So they tend not to even bother checking them out, which means when they go on Amazon, they're far more likely to order manga than any trade paperbacks published by Marvel or DC. And given those circumstances, on the occasions that Marvel or DC make an outreach attempt beyond the audience they've pigeonholed themselves into, nobody's even paying attention. They're in a trap of their own making, essentially. How does it change? Well, either there's a radical shakeup at these companies, or the remaining audience continues to gradually die off until price increases can no longer support the production of those comics. Heck, maybe both things happen.
Can I zoom in a little on “aimed at old people?” In what ways are you thinking of? I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong, but using X-Men as an example, I don’t see Krakoa or FtA as having a lot of barriers to entry for theoretical new readers. Were you thinking of any specific comics here?
Now, let's take the books featured in this week's Pimp My Wednesday:
"Nobody would believe it back in the 1980s, and fans can scarcely believe it today. But Doug Ramsey, formerly Cypher of the New Mutants, is about to be a very pivotal character on the X-Landscape. This journey began in the X-MEN: HEIR OF APOCALYPSE limited series, but it continues in earnest in X-MEN #19 this week. It’s written by Jed MacKay and illustrated by Netho Diaz, and it’s an issue that you’ll want to keep handy in the near future. Plus it featured Bei the Blood Moon and Warlock, and who doesn’t like Bei the Blood Moon and Warlock?"
This is being sold on the basis of a potential reader's attachment to decades old characters and concepts.
"And the big one: X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE VIGIL #1. Just listing all of the creators who were involved in this massive jam special would take the rest of this column, but it amounts to just about everybody who’s been working across the X-Line over the past year. It’s a story about looking backwards and looking forwards, and it will hopefully provide some killer moments that will have fans talking. Of particular note is this really nice cover by Luciano Vecchio, who designed a number of outfits for the story, and who’s hereafter illustrating UNCANNY X-MEN on the regular in rotation with David Marquez. Pretty much everybody is in this one."
This is being sold on the basis of the names of creators that are unlikely to mean anything to new or young readers.
In short, it's not enough to not have "barriers". To the contrary, you have to be able to grab kids' attention and pull them in amidst everything else they spend money on. Is there an easy answer to this problem? No. It's a very tough spot Marvel and DC folks are in these days.
I don't see either of those solicits at being exclusionary or implying anything that old older folks would be interested in. Heir of Apocalypse is a year old. The mention of Doug in the 1980s is a reference to how much people hated him then. If you mean to say that comics focus too much on existing readers and building in their internal lore, that's true, but Ultimate and Absolute exist for that reason.
The article you mention has a list dominated by Dog Man, a well established children's IP now, and one squarely aimed at kids 10 and younger. Should Marvel write comics for that market? Absolutely. But it's not entirely a fair comparison, it's like comparing Lilo & Stitch to Sinners. Most of the other mentioned comics are established IPs (Babysitters Club). The only three original ones should be studied, for sure.
"Exclusionary" is another way of saying barriers, and as I said, it's not enough to simply not have barriers. I'm also not sure why we should discount sales for established IPs, something Marvel and DC have plenty of. Fundamentally, it comes down to "What's selling to those younger readers, what isn't, and why?"
I'm 26 and I started reading Marvel comics with the AvX event, and maybe that's why Cyclops, Magik, Magneto and Emma have become my favorites. I'm not exactly a new reader, because I've been reading comics for over a decade now, but unfortunately everything that got me into comics has been completely swept into the dustbin of oblivion, and stuff from the 80s and 90s keeps getting brought up over and over again. I really don't care about the Claremont run, the Dark Phoenix Saga, Jott, or the Age of Apocalypse, or anything that fans in their 40s, 50s and 60s are so into. It's just tiresome to see fans and writers talking about stuff that happened 40 years ago.
But you care about Doug Ramsey, right? Just kidding.
I think what you say is reflective of many readers (or potential readers). But either The Powers That Be at Marvel don't believe that to be the case, or perhaps it's just easier to chase nostalgia dollars. My own view is that creators should look at the past primarily to understand WHY things connected with readers (or didn't) and then use those lessons to build new things. I think new stories having a connection to the past can be fun, but when that becomes your main selling point, you're in trouble. And certainly, if you're crafting stories based on old stories, but those new stories aren't compelling in their own right and it's all just memberberries, why should anyone who doesn't 'member the old stories care about any of the stories, new or old? When I was growing up, Marvel did an Invaders limited series. And I liked it enough that I wound up getting back issues of the original Invaders series which was published before I was born. Likewise, Thanos Quest hitting the stands in 1990 made me hunt down The Life Of Captain Marvel reprint series which featured his debut. But none of that would have happened if the new comics hadn't stood on their own, and instead had simply been "'Member how great these comics you never read were?" If that's really all you have for the reader, you might as well just publish reprints.
I think generally speaking if a reader is not willing to try a $4 or $5 single issue they won't try a $20 (or more trade). I dont see diversity as a factor but pure economics (so maybe a title you dont see as selling well is actually doing better than you thought and vice versa).
Thing is, it's different readers. The types of people who go into regular book stores are different than the types who specifically go in comic book stores.
True - but also are they the type to buy anything that is not reflected in the media (marvel movies, Batman, Walking dead, etc)? Are they enough of a market to move the needle? Probably not for the more niche books.
It might if word has gotten out within the community. For example, a Ms. Marvel book might not sell as well in singles but once the Muslim community knows there is a comic with a Muslim girl as the hero, then it's not quite so niche among that target audience. In theory, anyway.
True - but that could also apply for singles as well. If a book breaks out in the media due to representation (Ms Marvel - first muslim teen super hero), sensationalism (death of superman), or any other reason it may lead to sales. But given the volume of trades out every month it is not a steady revenue stream or an assurance of success.
If the big publishers knew what made a surefire hit in singles or trades they would replicate it every month on every title :)
One fun example: when the trailer for Moon Knight was out (before the show aired) my LCS sold out of every back issue, trade, and omnibus. Then when the show came out..no more sales boost. So who knows?
Except singles are relatively hard to find and buy. Most non-comics people know where a regular book store is - they would have to do research to find a comic book store.
For the inability to keep young readers from the red band material, could a solution be a parental code? It isn’t ideal, but if you’re old enough to be making and paying for your own account you just set up a code that for the more R rated releases you put in.
And if you’re a parent with a kid young enough to not be able to create an account/pay for one, then you get to choose the code. They’ll have to come to you any time they want to read something explicit, and you can say no.
Heck, even block off those sorts of releases to the free trials so kids can’t just keep creating accounts they can’t pay for to read that sorta stuff.
It isn’t ideal and there will always be work arounds, but it lets adults read it, and let’s marvel do its due diligence to not let kids get their hands on it.
The streaming services already do this. If you have an account for Disney+, the parental controls are the safeguard to keep children from watching Logan and the Deadpool movies.
And they probably didn't do that lightly, probably weighing the cost effectiveness against how worth it was to have many of Fox's R rated movies available in their library OR (most likely) they made it a possibility whenever they were designing Disney+ in the first place & needed minimal adjustment to the whole thing once the corporate decision was made to add such material.
It's probably more than likely strictly a technical issue of setting something like that up & the cost of doing that & making sure all the books would be properly vetting to be available to the different tiers &...yeah, it's not all that simple; it's much more simple for them NOT to do that.
Thanks for answering my question, Tom. I of course understand wanting to keep young readers safe from mature content, but can’t parental controls be put in place to filter those adult comics?
Thanks for the answer, Tom. Although I do wonder if this is also contingent on how trades are marketed? Atleast DC does their “comics that inspired the movie” boxsets, and from what I can infer Marvel’s answer to this has been to greenlight new series alongside the releases of movies and shows. Has there been any consideration to do box sets or anything of the sort?
I just read the new History of the DCU by Mark Waid - made me wonder do you enjoy this type of cataloguing/fitting it all together comic book histories? or a more free form 'oral history' type approach (details change over time, origins are updated, etc but the core story remains).
Personally I like the latter a bit better (although I do enjoy the History type books as well) - it avoids pedantic comics about comics stories by some writers (like Byrne attempting to explain colouring mistakes in continuity).
Oral loose history where details change over time based on memory and who is telling it (similar to stories in real life) has more storytelling leeway that way and is more fun IMO.
I'm not Tom, of course, but I am far more in favour of New History of the DCU than I am of that sort of thing in general just because I have found DC continuity so confusing since the changes made by the New 52 and the various subsequent attempts to walk those changes back.
You mentioned DC's Solo project, where artists were given 48 pages and the entire DC universe to play with. If Marvel did a similar project, who might you consider? Anyone outside of traditional big 2 comics?
Imagine a DWJ issue where he gives us a sequel to his Beta Ray Bill mini, a gritty 80s era Punisher story, a savage Hulk tale, maybe something set in the future like the 30th century Guardians of the Galaxy...lots of possibilities.
Also James Harren, Alan Davis (some old school fun), and Greg Capullo. Marvel needs to make this happen!
"In some cases, people have put through alternative conditions for victory. Well, that’s all well and good for them, but in terms of how this game is being played, the original rules can and will continue."
I stand vindicated!
"So, based on all of that, assuming that I’ve tracked all of the responses properly"
Couple of corrections. In your list, you included "Dark Angel Saga by Rick Remender" I believe based on Yliaster's comment, but I don't think that was meant to be a nomination. If it was, I veto it.
J. Kevin Carrier vetoed Avengers 256-257 in reply to my summary of the remaining nominations yesterday.
You missed the following nominations:
Fantastic Four #350 & 352 by Walt Simonson (nominated by Peter Hohman)
Warlock vs. the Magus by Jim Starlin (nominated by Marc Burkhardt and J. Kevin Carrier). You may have overlooked it because the follow-up story, Warlock and The Avengers vs. Thanos, was vetoed by JV in response to Mallrat's nomination.
So as of this writing, the 50 remaining nominations are as follows:
Fantastic Four #5 by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four: The Galactus Trilogy by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four 51 - This Man, This Monster by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four Annual 6 - Let There Be...Life! by Lee and Kirby
"Within This Troubled Land" from Fantastic Four #84-87 by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four #350 & 352 by Walt Simonson
Fantastic Four: Unstable Molecules by James Sturm and Guy Davis
Daredevil 227-233 Born Again by Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli
Elektra: Assassin by Frank Miller and Bill Sienkiewicz
X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills OGN by Chris Claremont and Brent Anderson
X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga by Claremont and Byrne
X-Men: Days Of Future Past by Claremont and Byrne
X-Men 256-268: Claremont and Jim Lee: Acts of Vengeance
New X-Men: E is for Extinction by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely
The first Wolverine miniseries by Claremont and Miller
Wolverine: Weapon X (BWS)
Amazing Fantasy #15 by Lee and Ditko
Amazing Spider-Man vol.1 issues #31-33, The Master Planner Saga by Lee and Ditko
Amazing Spider-Man #121-122, 'The Night Gwen Stacy Died'
Amazing Spider-Man 39-40 Green Goblin’s Last Stand by Lee and Romita
Amazing Spider-Man 229-230- Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut by Stern and Romita Jr
Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt by DeMatteis and Zeck
Ultimate Spider man: Power and Responsibility by Bendis and Bagley
Venom: Rex by Cates, Stegman, et al
Punisher: Welcome Back, Frank by Ennis and Dillon
Punisher: Born by Ennis and Robertson
Punisher Max 1-6: In The Beginning by Ennis and Larosa
Hulk: Future Imperfect by Peter David and George Perez
Planet Hulk by Greg Pak and Carlo Pagulayan
Immortal Hulk by Ewing, Bennett, et al
Captain America #109 by Lee and Kirby
Captain America - The Strange Death of Captain America by Jim Steranko (#110, 111, 113)
Captain America The Impostor By Steve Englehart & Sal Buscema (#153-156)
Captain America: The Secret Empire by Steve Englehart and Sal Buscema (CAP #169-176)
Captain America the Winter Soldier 1-14: Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting
Avengers 274-277 Under Siege by Roger Stern and John Buscema
Avengers 256-257 by Roger Stern and John Buscema
Avengers Annual #10 by Chris Claremont and Michael Golden
Avengers Forever by Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco
Avengers: Ultron Unlimited by Kurt Busiek and George Perez
Black Panther: Panther's Rage by Don McGregor, Billy Graham, et. al. (Jungle Action #6-18)
Thor #340-353 The Surtur Saga by Walt Simonson
The Vision by Tom King and Gabriel Hernandez Walta
Doctor Strange: The Oath by Vaughan, Martin, et al
Squadron Supreme by Mark Gruenwald, Bob Hall, and Paul Ryan
The "Fury Saga" from Captain Britain by Alan Moore and Alan Davis
Runaways by BKV and Adrian Alphona
Howard the Duck: Zen and the Art of Comic-Book Writing by Steve Gerber and various (HTD #16)
Annihilation by Giffen, Abnett, Lanning, DiVito, et al
Silver Surfer 5 - And who shall mourn for him? by Lee and Buscema
Warlock vs. the Magus by Jim Starlin (Strange Tales #178-181, Warlock #9-11)
Keeping my fingers crossed for one of my picks to make it to the end zone. Also pleased to see someone solve my dilemma of "how do you pick just one story from Immortal Hulk" by going with "just nominate the whole effing thing".
Oh I can do Force Works, because they appeared in my big read of everything Spider-Man: Spider-Woman, Iron Man (when he showed up), Scarlet Witch, US Patriot, Wonder Man (although he died on issue one), and Century. It was a fun little series, although somewhat hampered by what was happening with Iron Man at the time.
My question for the week: before starting the Green Goblin series featuring Phil Urich, did you know that Norman would be coming back and reclaiming the mask, or were any changes made to accommodate this reveal?
I've read a little Life of Reilly, but saving it till I've read the whole Clone Saga. It has a habit of spoiling things to come and this is my first read-through
My hope is that by next Sunday I'll have finished the Clone Saga, so I should be okay. But also, I know a lot of the big beats -- the return of [redacted], the death of [redacted], the kidnapping of [redacted]. But just not some of the finer details.
The most interesting thing about the Clone Saga to me is that the story developments are intimately tied to what was happening behind-the-scenes at Marvel at the time. Many of the writers and editors have said of various developments that it's not necessarily what they thought was the best story, but what was the least bad of the choices they were given at the moment (see Tom's tale of Budiansky's Kaine/New Warriors mandate). All of that to say, I suspect the biggest spoiler for your questions (assuming Tom gives a detailed answer) wouldn't be the return of [redacted] but the particular story developments that led to that decision. Although even with knowing the story and much of the behind-the-scenes, I'm still looking forward to hearing what Tom can add, so perhaps it's really impossible to spoil the Clone Saga! :)
If I can propose a slight alteration to the game, to us in the comments if not to Tom himself, can we start adding reasons for vetoes? Anyone can veto for any reason, but I think it’s more interesting to know why. I veto Welcome Back Frank because I think Ennis’ in-continuity work is bad.
Loved the Variants mini. I thought Gail was perfect for it. If you do another, I’d love to see her as the writer for it. It could be a Marvel version of the Benoit Blanc movies.
Hey Tom. Gotta admit you pulled the rug out from under me a bit when you clarified that things that don't sell well in singles also don't sell well in trade. That was usually my defense to the bigots who say that books that introduce more diversity and the singles don't sell well (based on the old Diamond/Comicron numbers) - that while the singles might not sell, they pay the bills and then the trade makes the money. So when that happened/happens and a series doesn't sell well, is this truly an attempt by the publisher to keep more diversity there for non-capitalistic reasons?
The pros I've talked to have explained it thusly; trade paperback collections can, under the right circumstances, surpass single issue sales. The audience for single issues is almost entirely male hardcore comic book fans over the age of 40. Mortality being a fact of life, the existing pool of over 40 year olds shrinks every day, and due to a combination of an overreliance on specialty shops and for 30 years making almost all of their comics aimed at people who regularly visit those specialty shops (ie; male hardcore comic book fans over the age of 40), Marvel and DC have not added new readers at nearly the rate that the old ones are dying off.
Consequently, although many young people are aware of Marvel and DC characters through movies, animation, and videogames, they are no longer aware of actual comic books. And on the off chance that they do come across a comic book, they tend to find they're aimed at old people. So they tend not to even bother checking them out, which means when they go on Amazon, they're far more likely to order manga than any trade paperbacks published by Marvel or DC. And given those circumstances, on the occasions that Marvel or DC make an outreach attempt beyond the audience they've pigeonholed themselves into, nobody's even paying attention. They're in a trap of their own making, essentially. How does it change? Well, either there's a radical shakeup at these companies, or the remaining audience continues to gradually die off until price increases can no longer support the production of those comics. Heck, maybe both things happen.
Can I zoom in a little on “aimed at old people?” In what ways are you thinking of? I’m not necessarily saying you’re wrong, but using X-Men as an example, I don’t see Krakoa or FtA as having a lot of barriers to entry for theoretical new readers. Were you thinking of any specific comics here?
Well, bear in mind I'm one of those old people. That said, this article gives some idea of the kind of stuff young people are currently into: https://bleedingcool.com/comics/the-graphic-novels-that-sold-over-100000-copies-in-bookstores-in-2024/
Now, let's take the books featured in this week's Pimp My Wednesday:
"Nobody would believe it back in the 1980s, and fans can scarcely believe it today. But Doug Ramsey, formerly Cypher of the New Mutants, is about to be a very pivotal character on the X-Landscape. This journey began in the X-MEN: HEIR OF APOCALYPSE limited series, but it continues in earnest in X-MEN #19 this week. It’s written by Jed MacKay and illustrated by Netho Diaz, and it’s an issue that you’ll want to keep handy in the near future. Plus it featured Bei the Blood Moon and Warlock, and who doesn’t like Bei the Blood Moon and Warlock?"
This is being sold on the basis of a potential reader's attachment to decades old characters and concepts.
"And the big one: X-MEN: THE HELLFIRE VIGIL #1. Just listing all of the creators who were involved in this massive jam special would take the rest of this column, but it amounts to just about everybody who’s been working across the X-Line over the past year. It’s a story about looking backwards and looking forwards, and it will hopefully provide some killer moments that will have fans talking. Of particular note is this really nice cover by Luciano Vecchio, who designed a number of outfits for the story, and who’s hereafter illustrating UNCANNY X-MEN on the regular in rotation with David Marquez. Pretty much everybody is in this one."
This is being sold on the basis of the names of creators that are unlikely to mean anything to new or young readers.
In short, it's not enough to not have "barriers". To the contrary, you have to be able to grab kids' attention and pull them in amidst everything else they spend money on. Is there an easy answer to this problem? No. It's a very tough spot Marvel and DC folks are in these days.
I don't see either of those solicits at being exclusionary or implying anything that old older folks would be interested in. Heir of Apocalypse is a year old. The mention of Doug in the 1980s is a reference to how much people hated him then. If you mean to say that comics focus too much on existing readers and building in their internal lore, that's true, but Ultimate and Absolute exist for that reason.
The article you mention has a list dominated by Dog Man, a well established children's IP now, and one squarely aimed at kids 10 and younger. Should Marvel write comics for that market? Absolutely. But it's not entirely a fair comparison, it's like comparing Lilo & Stitch to Sinners. Most of the other mentioned comics are established IPs (Babysitters Club). The only three original ones should be studied, for sure.
"Exclusionary" is another way of saying barriers, and as I said, it's not enough to simply not have barriers. I'm also not sure why we should discount sales for established IPs, something Marvel and DC have plenty of. Fundamentally, it comes down to "What's selling to those younger readers, what isn't, and why?"
I'm 26 and I started reading Marvel comics with the AvX event, and maybe that's why Cyclops, Magik, Magneto and Emma have become my favorites. I'm not exactly a new reader, because I've been reading comics for over a decade now, but unfortunately everything that got me into comics has been completely swept into the dustbin of oblivion, and stuff from the 80s and 90s keeps getting brought up over and over again. I really don't care about the Claremont run, the Dark Phoenix Saga, Jott, or the Age of Apocalypse, or anything that fans in their 40s, 50s and 60s are so into. It's just tiresome to see fans and writers talking about stuff that happened 40 years ago.
But you care about Doug Ramsey, right? Just kidding.
I think what you say is reflective of many readers (or potential readers). But either The Powers That Be at Marvel don't believe that to be the case, or perhaps it's just easier to chase nostalgia dollars. My own view is that creators should look at the past primarily to understand WHY things connected with readers (or didn't) and then use those lessons to build new things. I think new stories having a connection to the past can be fun, but when that becomes your main selling point, you're in trouble. And certainly, if you're crafting stories based on old stories, but those new stories aren't compelling in their own right and it's all just memberberries, why should anyone who doesn't 'member the old stories care about any of the stories, new or old? When I was growing up, Marvel did an Invaders limited series. And I liked it enough that I wound up getting back issues of the original Invaders series which was published before I was born. Likewise, Thanos Quest hitting the stands in 1990 made me hunt down The Life Of Captain Marvel reprint series which featured his debut. But none of that would have happened if the new comics hadn't stood on their own, and instead had simply been "'Member how great these comics you never read were?" If that's really all you have for the reader, you might as well just publish reprints.
I think generally speaking if a reader is not willing to try a $4 or $5 single issue they won't try a $20 (or more trade). I dont see diversity as a factor but pure economics (so maybe a title you dont see as selling well is actually doing better than you thought and vice versa).
Thing is, it's different readers. The types of people who go into regular book stores are different than the types who specifically go in comic book stores.
True - but also are they the type to buy anything that is not reflected in the media (marvel movies, Batman, Walking dead, etc)? Are they enough of a market to move the needle? Probably not for the more niche books.
It might if word has gotten out within the community. For example, a Ms. Marvel book might not sell as well in singles but once the Muslim community knows there is a comic with a Muslim girl as the hero, then it's not quite so niche among that target audience. In theory, anyway.
True - but that could also apply for singles as well. If a book breaks out in the media due to representation (Ms Marvel - first muslim teen super hero), sensationalism (death of superman), or any other reason it may lead to sales. But given the volume of trades out every month it is not a steady revenue stream or an assurance of success.
If the big publishers knew what made a surefire hit in singles or trades they would replicate it every month on every title :)
One fun example: when the trailer for Moon Knight was out (before the show aired) my LCS sold out of every back issue, trade, and omnibus. Then when the show came out..no more sales boost. So who knows?
Except singles are relatively hard to find and buy. Most non-comics people know where a regular book store is - they would have to do research to find a comic book store.
Correction, Sooraya Qadir a.k.a. Dust is the first Muslim teen superhero.
For the inability to keep young readers from the red band material, could a solution be a parental code? It isn’t ideal, but if you’re old enough to be making and paying for your own account you just set up a code that for the more R rated releases you put in.
And if you’re a parent with a kid young enough to not be able to create an account/pay for one, then you get to choose the code. They’ll have to come to you any time they want to read something explicit, and you can say no.
Heck, even block off those sorts of releases to the free trials so kids can’t just keep creating accounts they can’t pay for to read that sorta stuff.
It isn’t ideal and there will always be work arounds, but it lets adults read it, and let’s marvel do its due diligence to not let kids get their hands on it.
The streaming services already do this. If you have an account for Disney+, the parental controls are the safeguard to keep children from watching Logan and the Deadpool movies.
And they probably didn't do that lightly, probably weighing the cost effectiveness against how worth it was to have many of Fox's R rated movies available in their library OR (most likely) they made it a possibility whenever they were designing Disney+ in the first place & needed minimal adjustment to the whole thing once the corporate decision was made to add such material.
It's probably more than likely strictly a technical issue of setting something like that up & the cost of doing that & making sure all the books would be properly vetting to be available to the different tiers &...yeah, it's not all that simple; it's much more simple for them NOT to do that.
Thanks for answering my question, Tom. I of course understand wanting to keep young readers safe from mature content, but can’t parental controls be put in place to filter those adult comics?
Thanks for the answer, Tom. Although I do wonder if this is also contingent on how trades are marketed? Atleast DC does their “comics that inspired the movie” boxsets, and from what I can infer Marvel’s answer to this has been to greenlight new series alongside the releases of movies and shows. Has there been any consideration to do box sets or anything of the sort?
Belated congratulations to Ryan North et al on Fantastic Four 33. It was a banger, maybe even better than that.
I just read the new History of the DCU by Mark Waid - made me wonder do you enjoy this type of cataloguing/fitting it all together comic book histories? or a more free form 'oral history' type approach (details change over time, origins are updated, etc but the core story remains).
Personally I like the latter a bit better (although I do enjoy the History type books as well) - it avoids pedantic comics about comics stories by some writers (like Byrne attempting to explain colouring mistakes in continuity).
Oral loose history where details change over time based on memory and who is telling it (similar to stories in real life) has more storytelling leeway that way and is more fun IMO.
I'm not Tom, of course, but I am far more in favour of New History of the DCU than I am of that sort of thing in general just because I have found DC continuity so confusing since the changes made by the New 52 and the various subsequent attempts to walk those changes back.
You mentioned DC's Solo project, where artists were given 48 pages and the entire DC universe to play with. If Marvel did a similar project, who might you consider? Anyone outside of traditional big 2 comics?
Great idea - I think Chris Samnee, Daniel Warren Johnson, David Aja and Phil Jimenez would be fun for a Marvel Solo type project.
I love the DWJ suggestion. Of those you mention he is probably the most commercially viable.
Imagine a DWJ issue where he gives us a sequel to his Beta Ray Bill mini, a gritty 80s era Punisher story, a savage Hulk tale, maybe something set in the future like the 30th century Guardians of the Galaxy...lots of possibilities.
Also James Harren, Alan Davis (some old school fun), and Greg Capullo. Marvel needs to make this happen!
"In some cases, people have put through alternative conditions for victory. Well, that’s all well and good for them, but in terms of how this game is being played, the original rules can and will continue."
I stand vindicated!
"So, based on all of that, assuming that I’ve tracked all of the responses properly"
Couple of corrections. In your list, you included "Dark Angel Saga by Rick Remender" I believe based on Yliaster's comment, but I don't think that was meant to be a nomination. If it was, I veto it.
J. Kevin Carrier vetoed Avengers 256-257 in reply to my summary of the remaining nominations yesterday.
You missed the following nominations:
Fantastic Four #350 & 352 by Walt Simonson (nominated by Peter Hohman)
Warlock vs. the Magus by Jim Starlin (nominated by Marc Burkhardt and J. Kevin Carrier). You may have overlooked it because the follow-up story, Warlock and The Avengers vs. Thanos, was vetoed by JV in response to Mallrat's nomination.
So as of this writing, the 50 remaining nominations are as follows:
Fantastic Four #5 by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four: The Galactus Trilogy by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four 51 - This Man, This Monster by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four Annual 6 - Let There Be...Life! by Lee and Kirby
"Within This Troubled Land" from Fantastic Four #84-87 by Lee and Kirby
Fantastic Four #350 & 352 by Walt Simonson
Fantastic Four: Unstable Molecules by James Sturm and Guy Davis
Daredevil 227-233 Born Again by Frank Miller and David Mazzuchelli
Elektra: Assassin by Frank Miller and Bill Sienkiewicz
X-Men: God Loves, Man Kills OGN by Chris Claremont and Brent Anderson
X-Men: Dark Phoenix Saga by Claremont and Byrne
X-Men: Days Of Future Past by Claremont and Byrne
X-Men 256-268: Claremont and Jim Lee: Acts of Vengeance
New X-Men: E is for Extinction by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely
The first Wolverine miniseries by Claremont and Miller
Wolverine: Weapon X (BWS)
Amazing Fantasy #15 by Lee and Ditko
Amazing Spider-Man vol.1 issues #31-33, The Master Planner Saga by Lee and Ditko
Amazing Spider-Man #121-122, 'The Night Gwen Stacy Died'
Amazing Spider-Man 39-40 Green Goblin’s Last Stand by Lee and Romita
Amazing Spider-Man 229-230- Nothing Can Stop the Juggernaut by Stern and Romita Jr
Spider-Man: Kraven's Last Hunt by DeMatteis and Zeck
Ultimate Spider man: Power and Responsibility by Bendis and Bagley
Venom: Rex by Cates, Stegman, et al
Punisher: Welcome Back, Frank by Ennis and Dillon
Punisher: Born by Ennis and Robertson
Punisher Max 1-6: In The Beginning by Ennis and Larosa
Hulk: Future Imperfect by Peter David and George Perez
Planet Hulk by Greg Pak and Carlo Pagulayan
Immortal Hulk by Ewing, Bennett, et al
Captain America #109 by Lee and Kirby
Captain America - The Strange Death of Captain America by Jim Steranko (#110, 111, 113)
Captain America The Impostor By Steve Englehart & Sal Buscema (#153-156)
Captain America: The Secret Empire by Steve Englehart and Sal Buscema (CAP #169-176)
Captain America the Winter Soldier 1-14: Ed Brubaker and Steve Epting
Avengers 274-277 Under Siege by Roger Stern and John Buscema
Avengers 256-257 by Roger Stern and John Buscema
Avengers Annual #10 by Chris Claremont and Michael Golden
Avengers Forever by Kurt Busiek and Carlos Pacheco
Avengers: Ultron Unlimited by Kurt Busiek and George Perez
Black Panther: Panther's Rage by Don McGregor, Billy Graham, et. al. (Jungle Action #6-18)
Thor #340-353 The Surtur Saga by Walt Simonson
The Vision by Tom King and Gabriel Hernandez Walta
Doctor Strange: The Oath by Vaughan, Martin, et al
Squadron Supreme by Mark Gruenwald, Bob Hall, and Paul Ryan
The "Fury Saga" from Captain Britain by Alan Moore and Alan Davis
Runaways by BKV and Adrian Alphona
Howard the Duck: Zen and the Art of Comic-Book Writing by Steve Gerber and various (HTD #16)
Annihilation by Giffen, Abnett, Lanning, DiVito, et al
Silver Surfer 5 - And who shall mourn for him? by Lee and Buscema
Warlock vs. the Magus by Jim Starlin (Strange Tales #178-181, Warlock #9-11)
I guess I'll veto The Vision (Tom King), Venom: Rex, Punisher Max, and Acts of Vengeance (Chris Claremont/Jim Lee).
Keeping my fingers crossed for one of my picks to make it to the end zone. Also pleased to see someone solve my dilemma of "how do you pick just one story from Immortal Hulk" by going with "just nominate the whole effing thing".
Oh I can do Force Works, because they appeared in my big read of everything Spider-Man: Spider-Woman, Iron Man (when he showed up), Scarlet Witch, US Patriot, Wonder Man (although he died on issue one), and Century. It was a fun little series, although somewhat hampered by what was happening with Iron Man at the time.
My question for the week: before starting the Green Goblin series featuring Phil Urich, did you know that Norman would be coming back and reclaiming the mask, or were any changes made to accommodate this reveal?
The seminal Life Of Reilly covers some of it, so I think I know the answers, but I too am interested to hear Tom talk about the behind-the-scenes impact of that decision. https://lifeofreillyarchives.blogspot.com/2008/03/part-33.html
I've read a little Life of Reilly, but saving it till I've read the whole Clone Saga. It has a habit of spoiling things to come and this is my first read-through
Unless you're at the very end of the Clone Saga, I think the answers to your questions will necessarily involve some major spoilers!
My hope is that by next Sunday I'll have finished the Clone Saga, so I should be okay. But also, I know a lot of the big beats -- the return of [redacted], the death of [redacted], the kidnapping of [redacted]. But just not some of the finer details.
The most interesting thing about the Clone Saga to me is that the story developments are intimately tied to what was happening behind-the-scenes at Marvel at the time. Many of the writers and editors have said of various developments that it's not necessarily what they thought was the best story, but what was the least bad of the choices they were given at the moment (see Tom's tale of Budiansky's Kaine/New Warriors mandate). All of that to say, I suspect the biggest spoiler for your questions (assuming Tom gives a detailed answer) wouldn't be the return of [redacted] but the particular story developments that led to that decision. Although even with knowing the story and much of the behind-the-scenes, I'm still looking forward to hearing what Tom can add, so perhaps it's really impossible to spoil the Clone Saga! :)
If I can propose a slight alteration to the game, to us in the comments if not to Tom himself, can we start adding reasons for vetoes? Anyone can veto for any reason, but I think it’s more interesting to know why. I veto Welcome Back Frank because I think Ennis’ in-continuity work is bad.
Interesting! I think his best work is Hitman, which is "in continuity" for DC at the time.
Let Peter and MJ get married
Veto "Amazing Spider-Man #39-40 Green Goblin’s Last Stand".
Strong first part, but the second half is a lot of exposition and an anti-climactic ending.
Loved the Variants mini. I thought Gail was perfect for it. If you do another, I’d love to see her as the writer for it. It could be a Marvel version of the Benoit Blanc movies.
I veto Ultimate Spiderman and avengers annual 10. Never liked the first.. had lots of problem with the second..