I bought every issue of that Silver Surfer run as it came out because of Dan Slott's online posts but not the ones promoting it. I think it was Nick Spencer that was getting undeserved online crap about some storyline and Mister Slott posted something moving about why the attackers were wrong and was just being a great human being. I was planning on skipping this volume since I was neutral on both artist and character but I felt the post I read deserved some reward so I decided to at least sample it. I stayed to the end and never regretted any issue either.
TRUE BELIEVER is the Abraham Riesman book. I only made it about halfway through, because it’s so grindingly negative — but it’s still waiting on my Kindle for the day I gather enough strength to get through the back half.
The Spurgeon book is STAN LEE AND THE RISE AND FALL OF THE AMERICAN COMIC BOOK.
Thank you Kurt! (Your reaction is kinda what I was steeling myself for.)
Tom, can you speak to the factuality of Reisman’s book?
(Edit: Glen's link to Roy Thomas' abridged article pretty much provided the kind of context I was hoping for — though if you still have perspective to add, that's great too).
"Something like 95 percent of the time, Abraham Riesman’s True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee is a very good biography. However, the remaining (and crucial) 5 percent of its content, scattered amid all that painstaking research and well-written prose, renders it often untrustworthy… i.e., a very bad biography. Because the author often insists, visibly and intrusively, on putting his verbal thumb on the scales, in a dispute he seems ill-equipped to judge."
Another great newsletter Tom! Love the Geoff Johns avengers run - are you reading his recent JSA and Stargirl series? They are amazing.
You mention how you like obscure golden age characters - did you have a hand in bringing back or referencing some classics like the Hurricane (who turned out to be Makkari in a cool tie in) in the Marvel Age series by Roger Stern? Or the 1950 avengers/Agents of Atlas?
Or the John Steel character that Ed Brubaker brought back in Secret Avengers (did not know he was an existing character until later which was cool)?
Or even the recent Black Mask character that Al Ewing brought back in Marvel 1000 and the Defenders mini? Al Ewing did a great job of referencing Marvel Comics issue 1 and bringing in some stories into the modern era.
Stuff like this adds so much cool texture to the Marvel Universe. Lots of fun!
With the proviso that everyone's definitions of these are different, what are your definitions of the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, and any other ages of comics? I ask because putting Marvel Boy into the Silver Age surprised me.
You're so right that these "ages" can be a bit fluid.
If you haven't already seen it, I was impressed with Comic Book Historians' Alex Grand's breakdown. Expanding a bit on the common classifications, he includes an "Atomic Age" in-between the Golden and Silver ages.
That's what I did in my book (https://tinyurl.com/ymmu48at). If I were still writing non-fiction, I'd do a book on Atomic Age superheroes and what sets them apart from the Golden and Silver Age varieties.
The new Steve Stroce Thing/Hulk series looks amazing. Will have to check it out. I recently read some essentials of Marvel two in one and was wondering your thoughts on why the Thing is no longer as popular as he was in the 60s and 70s? He seemed along with Spidey to be the Marvel icon across comics and cartoons.
My own half baked theory is that he represents a boomer era archetype (the tough guy, WW2 vet, cigar chomping, big hearted, etc guy (Ala Jack Kirby) that we just don't see that much of anymore.
Looking forward to hearing Tom wax poetic about old Blue Eyes.
My half-baked theory is that it had more to do with Grimm being kinda the one instance of a rough-around-the-edges, kinda-dangerous character that's unambiguously a hero (unlike Namor and Hulk for instance). But then in the 70s when Wolverine came along, he set a new standard for "heroes with a bad attitude." With each successive decade, we saw the "attitude bar" raised progressively higher. Meanwhile, Ben settled more into a kind of big, rocky teddy-bear type of character.
I think another key element that I haven't seen discussed much is that Ben was from "the street" and made his way up from a pretty at-risk childhood. The longer he lives the life of a celebrity in the futuristic New York skyscraper with a loving and supportive middle- and upper-class family, the further removed he becomes from that edge.
I suspect that its also the case that characterizations evolve and refine through the years based on the POV of the writer and editors — which in turn is contingent on how much that writer's vision resonates with fandom and fellow writers. Think how much Moon Knight has evolved from the Moench days.
I also wonder if sometimes the appeal of characters' core DNA ebb and flow with the national/world zeitgeist. Sometimes audiences crave more cynical characters and sometimes they prefer something more inspirational.
To your theory, I suspect big-hearted, tough-guy vets may actually be part of every generation — not so much attached to the socioeconomic forces that molded Boomers. Which may give us some optimism that Ben's popularity will continue to endure. (Also, just to clarify if there was any ambiguity, Jolly Jack wasn't a Boomer — he was of the "Greatest Generation.")
“the Dan Slott and Mike Wieringo run of SILVER SURFER”… I am sure you meant Mike Allred.
Silver Surfer is one of the few characters that I follow - I have read every issue he has appeared in. This series is my favorite for both the writing and art. Thank you for the great history. I look forward to reading more stories on these issues.
Speaking of Silver Surfer - do you have any interesting background on Donny Cates/Tradd Moore SILVER SURFER BLACK? This is another favorite of mine. I was the first to ever have Tradd draw Silver Surfer. It was a commission at Heroes Con in 2016. I would share it here but I cannot add images to Comments.
I don't know about other readers Tom, but I can tell you I didn't buy ALL-OUT AVENGERS and I'm not buying AVENGERS BEYOND mainly because I just can't stand Greg Land's art. They only times I've bought books he's worked on is when I really liked the writers already, and I'm just not that familiar with Derek Landy's work.
Congratulations on your newsletter anniversary!! I’ve been looking forward to reading about Unstable Molecules here! I remember my friends and I being confused by it initially, but I love it now. Also, thanks for replying to my question. With all the talk about memoirs and histories, have you ever thought about writing your own? Do you see this newsletter and your blog as a long-form version of that? Thanks again for everything!
Congrats on a year of newsletters! I really appreciate you taking the time to do these, they're a highlight of every Sunday. I still remember the palpable excitement around Unthinkable in FF. That one really felt like a crazy new idea, and issue 67 in particular really had an impact. I remember telling people "You have to read this!"
Here's a question you probably can't answer. I'm about as big a fan of John Romita, Jr. as you're likely to meet. He's has at least one memorable run on pretty much every major Marvel property... Iron Man, Spider-Man, X-Men, Daredevil, Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, Black Panther, Avengers, Captain America and more besides... Except Fantastic Four. I know he did "The Last Fantastic Four Story" and that recent anniversary issue, but I mean a proper run. I don't know how he feels about it, but I've always thought it would be cool if he could complete the collection, so to speak. What do you think are the odds of John getting a year on FF sometime?
Curses! Another opportunity foiled by the necessity of buying an American stamp.
And it's pretty clear that Shooter wrote that memo tongue-in-cheek. There were people who really thought that Jonathan Swift wanted them to eat babies, too.
I'm impressed to read how you talk about Bill Jemas. While you speak openly about how his personal style could be insulting to the rank & file to staff and creative talent, and how misguided some of his "rules" and projects were — that you acknowledge when you feel he made the right call in specific instances. I aspire to that kind of even-handedness in and out of work.
Somewhat along those lines…
To the extent you are comfortable sharing, I'm curious about your impression of the various EIC tenures you've experienced (or of prior EIC's that you've read/learned enough about to comment on).
I'm sure everyone to hold that position has had their own philosophy, set of strengths and weaknesses, and very specific market challenges that were facing the company/industry when they just happened to be in the chair.
More broadly, are there a set of aptitudes you have noticed tend to contribute to better comics, regardless of any individual EIC?
________
BTW: I sincerely, dearly, strongly hope all you comics folk are spared from Iger's scythe.
“And it didn’t sell all that well (a fact that doomed a separate pre-history of the Fantastic Four project that Mark Waid and I had been talking about doing with George Perez, which would have been much more mainstream Marvel.)”
Hell’s bells! You can’t just drop a beautiful “coulda been” like that and not give more details, sir! That’s like teasing unreleased Beatles album between “Sgt. Pepper…” and “The White Album”!
I bought every issue of that Silver Surfer run as it came out because of Dan Slott's online posts but not the ones promoting it. I think it was Nick Spencer that was getting undeserved online crap about some storyline and Mister Slott posted something moving about why the attackers were wrong and was just being a great human being. I was planning on skipping this volume since I was neutral on both artist and character but I felt the post I read deserved some reward so I decided to at least sample it. I stayed to the end and never regretted any issue either.
I recall seeing buttons from some convention in the early 80s, with that Shooter quote on them: We'll trick the little fucks!
"Slott would typically call me at home after each day to do a debrief on how the day had gone."
you told me you didn't have a home phone number?...
hahahaha!
TRUE BELIEVER is the Abraham Riesman book. I only made it about halfway through, because it’s so grindingly negative — but it’s still waiting on my Kindle for the day I gather enough strength to get through the back half.
The Spurgeon book is STAN LEE AND THE RISE AND FALL OF THE AMERICAN COMIC BOOK.
kdb
Thank you Kurt! (Your reaction is kinda what I was steeling myself for.)
Tom, can you speak to the factuality of Reisman’s book?
(Edit: Glen's link to Roy Thomas' abridged article pretty much provided the kind of context I was hoping for — though if you still have perspective to add, that's great too).
I'm not Tom, but Roy Thomas wrote a whole piece about it.
( https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/roy-thomas-former-marvel-editor-pushes-back-on-new-stan-lee-biography-guest-column-4136571/ )
"Something like 95 percent of the time, Abraham Riesman’s True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee is a very good biography. However, the remaining (and crucial) 5 percent of its content, scattered amid all that painstaking research and well-written prose, renders it often untrustworthy… i.e., a very bad biography. Because the author often insists, visibly and intrusively, on putting his verbal thumb on the scales, in a dispute he seems ill-equipped to judge."
Thanks Glen! This is really helpful!
Another great newsletter Tom! Love the Geoff Johns avengers run - are you reading his recent JSA and Stargirl series? They are amazing.
You mention how you like obscure golden age characters - did you have a hand in bringing back or referencing some classics like the Hurricane (who turned out to be Makkari in a cool tie in) in the Marvel Age series by Roger Stern? Or the 1950 avengers/Agents of Atlas?
Or the John Steel character that Ed Brubaker brought back in Secret Avengers (did not know he was an existing character until later which was cool)?
Or even the recent Black Mask character that Al Ewing brought back in Marvel 1000 and the Defenders mini? Al Ewing did a great job of referencing Marvel Comics issue 1 and bringing in some stories into the modern era.
Stuff like this adds so much cool texture to the Marvel Universe. Lots of fun!
With the proviso that everyone's definitions of these are different, what are your definitions of the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, and any other ages of comics? I ask because putting Marvel Boy into the Silver Age surprised me.
You're so right that these "ages" can be a bit fluid.
If you haven't already seen it, I was impressed with Comic Book Historians' Alex Grand's breakdown. Expanding a bit on the common classifications, he includes an "Atomic Age" in-between the Golden and Silver ages.
https://comicbookhistorians.com/the-8-ages-of-comic-books/
That's what I did in my book (https://tinyurl.com/ymmu48at). If I were still writing non-fiction, I'd do a book on Atomic Age superheroes and what sets them apart from the Golden and Silver Age varieties.
The new Steve Stroce Thing/Hulk series looks amazing. Will have to check it out. I recently read some essentials of Marvel two in one and was wondering your thoughts on why the Thing is no longer as popular as he was in the 60s and 70s? He seemed along with Spidey to be the Marvel icon across comics and cartoons.
My own half baked theory is that he represents a boomer era archetype (the tough guy, WW2 vet, cigar chomping, big hearted, etc guy (Ala Jack Kirby) that we just don't see that much of anymore.
Your thoughts?
Looking forward to hearing Tom wax poetic about old Blue Eyes.
My half-baked theory is that it had more to do with Grimm being kinda the one instance of a rough-around-the-edges, kinda-dangerous character that's unambiguously a hero (unlike Namor and Hulk for instance). But then in the 70s when Wolverine came along, he set a new standard for "heroes with a bad attitude." With each successive decade, we saw the "attitude bar" raised progressively higher. Meanwhile, Ben settled more into a kind of big, rocky teddy-bear type of character.
I think another key element that I haven't seen discussed much is that Ben was from "the street" and made his way up from a pretty at-risk childhood. The longer he lives the life of a celebrity in the futuristic New York skyscraper with a loving and supportive middle- and upper-class family, the further removed he becomes from that edge.
I suspect that its also the case that characterizations evolve and refine through the years based on the POV of the writer and editors — which in turn is contingent on how much that writer's vision resonates with fandom and fellow writers. Think how much Moon Knight has evolved from the Moench days.
I also wonder if sometimes the appeal of characters' core DNA ebb and flow with the national/world zeitgeist. Sometimes audiences crave more cynical characters and sometimes they prefer something more inspirational.
To your theory, I suspect big-hearted, tough-guy vets may actually be part of every generation — not so much attached to the socioeconomic forces that molded Boomers. Which may give us some optimism that Ben's popularity will continue to endure. (Also, just to clarify if there was any ambiguity, Jolly Jack wasn't a Boomer — he was of the "Greatest Generation.")
well said!
“the Dan Slott and Mike Wieringo run of SILVER SURFER”… I am sure you meant Mike Allred.
Silver Surfer is one of the few characters that I follow - I have read every issue he has appeared in. This series is my favorite for both the writing and art. Thank you for the great history. I look forward to reading more stories on these issues.
Speaking of Silver Surfer - do you have any interesting background on Donny Cates/Tradd Moore SILVER SURFER BLACK? This is another favorite of mine. I was the first to ever have Tradd draw Silver Surfer. It was a commission at Heroes Con in 2016. I would share it here but I cannot add images to Comments.
I don't know about other readers Tom, but I can tell you I didn't buy ALL-OUT AVENGERS and I'm not buying AVENGERS BEYOND mainly because I just can't stand Greg Land's art. They only times I've bought books he's worked on is when I really liked the writers already, and I'm just not that familiar with Derek Landy's work.
Congratulations on your newsletter anniversary!! I’ve been looking forward to reading about Unstable Molecules here! I remember my friends and I being confused by it initially, but I love it now. Also, thanks for replying to my question. With all the talk about memoirs and histories, have you ever thought about writing your own? Do you see this newsletter and your blog as a long-form version of that? Thanks again for everything!
Congrats on a year of newsletters! I really appreciate you taking the time to do these, they're a highlight of every Sunday. I still remember the palpable excitement around Unthinkable in FF. That one really felt like a crazy new idea, and issue 67 in particular really had an impact. I remember telling people "You have to read this!"
Here's a question you probably can't answer. I'm about as big a fan of John Romita, Jr. as you're likely to meet. He's has at least one memorable run on pretty much every major Marvel property... Iron Man, Spider-Man, X-Men, Daredevil, Thor, Hulk, Wolverine, Black Panther, Avengers, Captain America and more besides... Except Fantastic Four. I know he did "The Last Fantastic Four Story" and that recent anniversary issue, but I mean a proper run. I don't know how he feels about it, but I've always thought it would be cool if he could complete the collection, so to speak. What do you think are the odds of John getting a year on FF sometime?
Curses! Another opportunity foiled by the necessity of buying an American stamp.
And it's pretty clear that Shooter wrote that memo tongue-in-cheek. There were people who really thought that Jonathan Swift wanted them to eat babies, too.
That ChatGPT sequence felt ripped right out of my novel - not the style, but the plot!
Hi Tom, congrats on the column anniversary!
Here’s my question: is there any beloved comic character who you just don’t get the appeal of?
Or, maybe a slightly more positive alternative: is there any memorable moment where you finally *did* get the appeal of a beloved character?
I'm impressed to read how you talk about Bill Jemas. While you speak openly about how his personal style could be insulting to the rank & file to staff and creative talent, and how misguided some of his "rules" and projects were — that you acknowledge when you feel he made the right call in specific instances. I aspire to that kind of even-handedness in and out of work.
Somewhat along those lines…
To the extent you are comfortable sharing, I'm curious about your impression of the various EIC tenures you've experienced (or of prior EIC's that you've read/learned enough about to comment on).
I'm sure everyone to hold that position has had their own philosophy, set of strengths and weaknesses, and very specific market challenges that were facing the company/industry when they just happened to be in the chair.
More broadly, are there a set of aptitudes you have noticed tend to contribute to better comics, regardless of any individual EIC?
________
BTW: I sincerely, dearly, strongly hope all you comics folk are spared from Iger's scythe.
“And it didn’t sell all that well (a fact that doomed a separate pre-history of the Fantastic Four project that Mark Waid and I had been talking about doing with George Perez, which would have been much more mainstream Marvel.)”
Hell’s bells! You can’t just drop a beautiful “coulda been” like that and not give more details, sir! That’s like teasing unreleased Beatles album between “Sgt. Pepper…” and “The White Album”!