I’ve always found the idea of a story being “anti-fan” to be silly. Amongst other reasons, that suggests to me that the better version of stories are pro-fan, and, uh, we have ample evidence at this point that this is in fact not true. (I also liked Avengers Arena and thought Dennis and Kev did a great job of maximizing the concept and a tough situation)
I recall dreading Avengers Arena because the idea of killing characters has always felt like such a waste. But I liked the creative team so I got issue 1... and ended up getting the entire run. Very great character stuff. And Walker’s art was phenomenal. Loved it. And enjoyed the follow up undercover series too.
I’m still sad about some of the characters who died (Mettle in particular as I adored Avengers Academy). But a lot of the other Academy characters and a lot of the Arena/Undercover characters haven’t shown up anywhere. So I’m more just sad to not see enough of them.
I worked on a few things with Blake’s 7 star Paul Darrow around the turn of the millennium. He was a great guy, and very different to Avon. One time I told him that I’d read a review that suggested that in the last season he was doing an extended impression of Rod Steiger as Napoleon. It says a lot about Paul that he laughed for almost a full minute and then said, “Well, I wasn’t, but I can see where they were coming from.”
Working on No Surrender and No Road Home was such a great experience, Tom. Stressful at times, of course, but also really satisfying when we came together to make it all happen. Mark and Al were incredible collaborators, you and Alanna were great at strengthening each step of the process while keeping our eye on the prize, and our art teams were absolutely top notch.
I read about an unfinished 2 part Daredevil story that was supposed to follow Born Again - written by Frank Miller and drawn by Walter Simonson - the script for part1 has floated online - any chance this can be completed? Any behind the scenes stories on this?
I mean an incomplete Frank Miller story (it was supposed to guest star Dr. Strange) !! In a perfect world it gets completed and includes a small back up Dr. Strange story by Roger Stern with art by Miller (as a nod to their aborted run that was famously advertised but never happened).
Appreciate you answering my question about The Punisher. And I wasn't really asking for spoilers so much as hoping for reassurances.
I understand the desire to do something different with Frank but I personally feel he works best in a gritty crime setting with little to no interactions with the rest of the Marvel Universe.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just glad there's an ongoing Punisher series again and I'm really hoping for more omnibus collected editions.
I know you were probably just starting out when these were published but-- Do you have any insight on the direction characters like She-Hulk and Animal Man took in the late 80s/early 90s? Meaning breaking the fourth wall/aware they are fictional characters while still coexisting in their mainstream continuities? I just finished Grant Morrison's Animal Man and realized it came out around the same time as John Byrne's Sensational She-Hulk. It's fascinating to see DC and Marvel tackle the same concepts side by side, one comedic and the other more existential and horrifying. Obviously this wasn't a new concept at the time or since. Stan and Jack (and others) did this sort of thing for gags since the golden age. Deadpool. Mark Waid's FF run dabbled a bit with it in the afterlife. Mark Millar's 1985. There are countless examples in comics and other mediums. But Shulkie/Animal Man seem like the modern watershed moment for it in superhero comics continuity (as far as I know).
I was wondering, why did the excellent Spider-Man/Human Torch limited series (one of the best stories that Slott ever did during his nearly twenty years second stint at Marvel) skip the 90's era altogether (in the last issue, Spidey says that it's because of the infamous clone saga but is there other reasons ?) when the 60's got two issues (one for the Ditko era, the other for Romita Sr era) ?
Tom, your online posts continue to be interesting and entertaining. Thank you. A question further down among these comments got me thinking about Frank Miller's Marvel work.
My knowledge of the topic is spotty, but I seem to remember that Frank had a "gentleman's agreement" with Marvel that no one would ever use Elektra. In return, he would continue to provide Elektra material every once in a while. Presumably that would be like "Elektra: Assassin," not necessarily in-universe or canonical but notabley and likely successful all the same.
At some point, it was decided by some people at Marvel to use Elektra despite this agreement, and Miller broke with Marvel, refusing to work for them again. (Again, spotty knowledge on my part, forgive any errors!)
Can you elaborate and share the full story? Who decided to use Elektra, and why? Were the benefits weighed against the cost of losing Miller's future work?
Was there an error in judgment regarding MIller's position? After all, Alan Moore returned to DC, in a way. This was not only for his Wildstorm-ish ABC Comics line but for "Albion," which was a more pure DC property. Rick Veitch also returned to DC (although never finishing his Swamp Thing run). Maybe it was thought that Miller would "get over it."
Finally, I wonder how the cost/benefit ratio worked out. After all, Marvel has since produced a lot of Elektra comics, and there has been an Elektra movie and her appearances in the Netflix shows. On the other hand, Marvel has had no further Miller work. In the meantime, DC has published "DK III: Master Race" and "Superman: Year One" and possibly more to come.
I do not know about the numbers, but I assume that even a relative failure of a movie such as Jennifer Garner's "Elektra" might outperform a comic run like "Superman" Year One." Then again, how much of that profit gets back to Marvel Comics?
What do you know about the decision-making that you can share? What do you think of the results? Worth it or not?
I apologize if this has been discussed before. Just post the links if it has!
Thanks again for essays on comics and comic history, and for your availability to readers.
This is probably more of a DC quetion, but do you have any idea why the Squadron Supreme wasn't cease and desisted by by DC? They certainly went full-court-press on Captain Marvel back in the 40s and (if I recall correctly) took issue with Steve Gerber's Wundarr. It seems that the standard is so different from the Fawcett lawsuit days and the now-commonplace Superman, Batman, and JLA pastiches not only in comics, but also in film and television.
Also, which of Marvel's many Superman analogues is your favorite (and why)?
On Thursday of each week, Marvel Unlimited puts up about a dozen back issues. This time it's from the 1990s X-Man run. The week before it was various "Marvel" comics (Marvel Tales, Marvel Two-in-One, Marvel Presents, etc). Before that it was the tail end of the 1980s Dazzler run. Do you have any inside information on how the weekly back issues are chosen?
I have been asked to write an introduction to Dave Thorpe's memoir, 616, the term he invented when writing Captain Britain, got picked up for the US comics by Claremont and then infected fandom. Once upon a time you said “I can tell you for sure that those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term - and I kind of wince inside whenever I hear somebody use it. It just sounds so stupid to my ear, and so counter to the kind of mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create and the thinking we try to employ”. Now that 616 has become used even more, especially in X-Men and Spider-Man comics, as well as the movies and even has a TV show named after it, do you still wince as much?
I’ve always found the idea of a story being “anti-fan” to be silly. Amongst other reasons, that suggests to me that the better version of stories are pro-fan, and, uh, we have ample evidence at this point that this is in fact not true. (I also liked Avengers Arena and thought Dennis and Kev did a great job of maximizing the concept and a tough situation)
I recall dreading Avengers Arena because the idea of killing characters has always felt like such a waste. But I liked the creative team so I got issue 1... and ended up getting the entire run. Very great character stuff. And Walker’s art was phenomenal. Loved it. And enjoyed the follow up undercover series too.
I’m still sad about some of the characters who died (Mettle in particular as I adored Avengers Academy). But a lot of the other Academy characters and a lot of the Arena/Undercover characters haven’t shown up anywhere. So I’m more just sad to not see enough of them.
I worked on a few things with Blake’s 7 star Paul Darrow around the turn of the millennium. He was a great guy, and very different to Avon. One time I told him that I’d read a review that suggested that in the last season he was doing an extended impression of Rod Steiger as Napoleon. It says a lot about Paul that he laughed for almost a full minute and then said, “Well, I wasn’t, but I can see where they were coming from.”
Working on No Surrender and No Road Home was such a great experience, Tom. Stressful at times, of course, but also really satisfying when we came together to make it all happen. Mark and Al were incredible collaborators, you and Alanna were great at strengthening each step of the process while keeping our eye on the prize, and our art teams were absolutely top notch.
Thanks for bringing me on board.
I read about an unfinished 2 part Daredevil story that was supposed to follow Born Again - written by Frank Miller and drawn by Walter Simonson - the script for part1 has floated online - any chance this can be completed? Any behind the scenes stories on this?
I mean an incomplete Frank Miller story (it was supposed to guest star Dr. Strange) !! In a perfect world it gets completed and includes a small back up Dr. Strange story by Roger Stern with art by Miller (as a nod to their aborted run that was famously advertised but never happened).
Appreciate you answering my question about The Punisher. And I wasn't really asking for spoilers so much as hoping for reassurances.
I understand the desire to do something different with Frank but I personally feel he works best in a gritty crime setting with little to no interactions with the rest of the Marvel Universe.
But hey, what do I know? I'm just glad there's an ongoing Punisher series again and I'm really hoping for more omnibus collected editions.
-Tyler
I know you were probably just starting out when these were published but-- Do you have any insight on the direction characters like She-Hulk and Animal Man took in the late 80s/early 90s? Meaning breaking the fourth wall/aware they are fictional characters while still coexisting in their mainstream continuities? I just finished Grant Morrison's Animal Man and realized it came out around the same time as John Byrne's Sensational She-Hulk. It's fascinating to see DC and Marvel tackle the same concepts side by side, one comedic and the other more existential and horrifying. Obviously this wasn't a new concept at the time or since. Stan and Jack (and others) did this sort of thing for gags since the golden age. Deadpool. Mark Waid's FF run dabbled a bit with it in the afterlife. Mark Millar's 1985. There are countless examples in comics and other mediums. But Shulkie/Animal Man seem like the modern watershed moment for it in superhero comics continuity (as far as I know).
I was wondering, why did the excellent Spider-Man/Human Torch limited series (one of the best stories that Slott ever did during his nearly twenty years second stint at Marvel) skip the 90's era altogether (in the last issue, Spidey says that it's because of the infamous clone saga but is there other reasons ?) when the 60's got two issues (one for the Ditko era, the other for Romita Sr era) ?
Tom, your online posts continue to be interesting and entertaining. Thank you. A question further down among these comments got me thinking about Frank Miller's Marvel work.
My knowledge of the topic is spotty, but I seem to remember that Frank had a "gentleman's agreement" with Marvel that no one would ever use Elektra. In return, he would continue to provide Elektra material every once in a while. Presumably that would be like "Elektra: Assassin," not necessarily in-universe or canonical but notabley and likely successful all the same.
At some point, it was decided by some people at Marvel to use Elektra despite this agreement, and Miller broke with Marvel, refusing to work for them again. (Again, spotty knowledge on my part, forgive any errors!)
Can you elaborate and share the full story? Who decided to use Elektra, and why? Were the benefits weighed against the cost of losing Miller's future work?
Was there an error in judgment regarding MIller's position? After all, Alan Moore returned to DC, in a way. This was not only for his Wildstorm-ish ABC Comics line but for "Albion," which was a more pure DC property. Rick Veitch also returned to DC (although never finishing his Swamp Thing run). Maybe it was thought that Miller would "get over it."
Finally, I wonder how the cost/benefit ratio worked out. After all, Marvel has since produced a lot of Elektra comics, and there has been an Elektra movie and her appearances in the Netflix shows. On the other hand, Marvel has had no further Miller work. In the meantime, DC has published "DK III: Master Race" and "Superman: Year One" and possibly more to come.
I do not know about the numbers, but I assume that even a relative failure of a movie such as Jennifer Garner's "Elektra" might outperform a comic run like "Superman" Year One." Then again, how much of that profit gets back to Marvel Comics?
What do you know about the decision-making that you can share? What do you think of the results? Worth it or not?
I apologize if this has been discussed before. Just post the links if it has!
Thanks again for essays on comics and comic history, and for your availability to readers.
Sincerely,
Steve
This is probably more of a DC quetion, but do you have any idea why the Squadron Supreme wasn't cease and desisted by by DC? They certainly went full-court-press on Captain Marvel back in the 40s and (if I recall correctly) took issue with Steve Gerber's Wundarr. It seems that the standard is so different from the Fawcett lawsuit days and the now-commonplace Superman, Batman, and JLA pastiches not only in comics, but also in film and television.
Also, which of Marvel's many Superman analogues is your favorite (and why)?
On Thursday of each week, Marvel Unlimited puts up about a dozen back issues. This time it's from the 1990s X-Man run. The week before it was various "Marvel" comics (Marvel Tales, Marvel Two-in-One, Marvel Presents, etc). Before that it was the tail end of the 1980s Dazzler run. Do you have any inside information on how the weekly back issues are chosen?
I have been asked to write an introduction to Dave Thorpe's memoir, 616, the term he invented when writing Captain Britain, got picked up for the US comics by Claremont and then infected fandom. Once upon a time you said “I can tell you for sure that those of us actually working on the books virtually never use the term - and I kind of wince inside whenever I hear somebody use it. It just sounds so stupid to my ear, and so counter to the kind of mindset we try to foster in regard to the stories we create and the thinking we try to employ”. Now that 616 has become used even more, especially in X-Men and Spider-Man comics, as well as the movies and even has a TV show named after it, do you still wince as much?